But the Devil Sends the Cooks
By Anwaar Hussain
Despite incessant interludes of chaos, Afghanistan was not always this rough, blood splattered land of wild hordes charging their steeds in its desolate stretches. When Europe was backwards, impoverished and irrelevant territory, the region today called Central Asia, with Afghanistan at its southern tip and ancient trade routes interweaving it, was a land of much wealth, culture, scholarly attainment and prized international trade.
Writing way back in the year 1900, poet James Elroy Flecker summed up the view the Western world held of the region at the time;
Sweet to ride forth at evening from the wells,
When shadows pass gigantic on the sand,
And softly through the silence beat the bells,
Along the Golden Road to Samarkand.
Dating back over 6000 years, some of the earliest indications of mining anywhere in the world come from Afghanistan. Afghanistan, for example, has always been a well-known source of precious and semi-precious stones and above all its lapis lazuli. The blue lapis lazuli stone in the famous funeral mask of the Egyptian Pharaoh Tutankhamen was reportedly exported from Badakhshan in Afghanistan to Egypt in 1300 BC.
During the Russian occupation of Afghanistan, geological investigations were closed to the Western world. The Soviets, however, did carry out sporadic mining surveys in the country neatly cataloguing these on charts and maps. Though much of this record was destroyed during the armed resistance to the Soviet occupation, and later during the messy Taliban rule, some did survive.
It was thus that in 2004, when the Americans undertook the so called reconstruction effort in Afghanistan, some geologists came across fascinating sets of old Soviet charts and data at the library of the Afghan Geological Survey in Kabul. The information more than hinted at major mineral deposits in the country.
That got the US Geological Survey team’s antennae up. They promptly got an old Orion P-3 aircraft, configured it with advanced gravity and magnetic measuring equipment, loaded it up with the Russian survey charts and maps and began a series of aerial surveys of Afghanistan’s mineral resources. They flew well over 70 per cent of the country in the year 2006. The data they put together was so promising that they returned in 2007, this time with instruments that offered a 3-D contour of mineral deposits deep below the surface. In the end, what was started as a hunch turned out to be the most wide-ranging geological survey ever conducted in Afghanistan. The results, not shared internationally till then, were breathtaking.
Due to the universally slow pace of bureaucracy, however, files containing this astonishing array of records kept gathering dust for next the two years in US filing cabinets. It was only in 2009 that a Pentagon task force called ‘Business Development Task Force’ (whatever it stands for) stumbled upon this wealth of information. Not very much later the Pentagon task force brought in teams of American mining experts and had them poring over the survey’s findings. Eureka!, the experts shouted to themselves at the end of the study, with their head honchos reaching for the nearest telephones simultaneously.
The Times broke the story in a screaming headline on June 13, 2010. Reportedly, the deposits are so rich in quality and quantity that according to the NYT “Afghanistan could eventually be transformed into one of the most important mining centers in the world.” Having a worth of approximately one trillion US dollars, Afghanistan is said to be loaded with bulging veins of gold, copper, iron, cobalt and critical industrial metals like Lithium. The country’s present gross domestic product stands at a puny $12 billion.
The biggest mineral deposits discovered so far are of iron and copper. Other finds include large deposits of niobium, a soft metal used in producing superconducting steel, and some rare earth elements. An internal Pentagon memo, according to the same report, states that “Afghanistan could become the ‘Saudi Arabia of lithium’.” Gen. David H. Petraeus, commander of the United States Central Command called it a ‘stunning potential’. Jalil Jumriany, an adviser to the Afghan minister of mines, said, “this will become the backbone of the Afghan economy.”
Intriguingly, the Times slipped in another interesting report the very next day i.e. on June 14th. According to this one, the bidding for rights to explore the reserves could begin in as little as six months and that Afghan officials believed that there was even more wealth than announced so far. According to these officials, it was so because, “in part the surveyors did not examine closely the entire country and at least 30 percent of it has yet to be fully investigated.”
The NYT articles of the 13th and 14th June surreptitiously raise two other issues. One, the Taliban could now fight ever more viciously for their country’s untapped wealth. And two, regional actors like China are likely to warm up to the idea of having these untold riches just in their backyard.
Well!!! One could let the two stories go by as straightforward reporting but for one other report. In this report of 14th June, the viability of President Obama’s plan to begin pulling out by July 2011 has been questioned. Ever ready regional specialist Bruce Reidel of Brookings Institution, who helped formulate the administration’s first Afghan strategy in early 2009 has been reported as saying, “things are not looking good, there’s not much sign of the turnaround that people were hoping for.” While Mr. Reidel did say that pouring in more troops was politically infeasible, he also added, “pulling out altogether would make the United States vulnerable to a terrorist attack organized by Al Qaeda and originating in a Taliban-dominated Afghanistan.”
Now the scribe could have simply said ‘eat your heart out Dick Cheney’ and let the news slip by as sensational but routine, or draw certain not so routine conclusions from the reportage. Just some of these are;
1. The mineral finds were too big a news to keep under wraps any longer.
2. The time to share the lolly i.e. the bidding time, was just around the corner at which time the sudden announcement of the finds would have looked even more suspicious.
3. The current American Administration, which had promised a pullout in a rush of blood at the start, is increasingly finding out that the withdrawal option not only means a loss of face, it is also not possible to just fold up and go home. (discussed elsewhere in greater details)
Essentially, then, it all boils down to this for the good old US of A. Cut and run and be damned, or stay and fight and be damned but have your pockets full by the time the bullhorn is sounded.
So yes, eat your heart out Dick Cheney for you missed it by a click but urge Dubya’s successors to start building the world’s second largest embassy in Kabul, the first one having been already built in the other colony.
To the grand strategic thinkers of Pakistani variety especially, therefore, one has this to say; start getting your danders up, but make haste slowly this time for no one is going any where any time too soon. Let the grand masters have their fill of the Manna first.
And to the poor Afghans unable to extract from the bowels of the earth what is rightfully theirs, this, “God sends the meat but the devil sends the cooks.”
~*~*~
Could this not be the reason that India is investing heavily into Afghanistan. It is possible that the Soviets shared this info with the Indians as they were very close to them and India was the biggest supporter of Soviets in Afghanistan.
June 16th, 2010 at 2:06 pmThis could very well be the reason sir. I mean the Russians could have very much said to themselves, “what’s the loss if a parting gift is given to a bosom buddy who is also a local of the region?” They were exiting the area any way.
Or some friends of India, high up in the Soviet corridors of power, may have dropped the candy later into the Indian lap when the Soviet Union was about to break up.
Yes, very much a possibility.
June 16th, 2010 at 2:14 pmThere couldn’t be a better explanation than this “God sends the meat but the devil sends the cooks” Another great article sir.
I am not saying much but it doesn’t mean I don’t read your articles. I’m watching and am listening…..One day we’ll discuss….. QUADRA
June 16th, 2010 at 3:14 pmGreat title Anwaar. how about collecting all you articles in to books, or maybe volumes. You may need to categorize them into topics. Call me up please the next time you are here.
June 16th, 2010 at 3:31 pmAnwaar,
Surely you know operational battlefields always give birth to the “tumbleweed doctrine”. Things change as the military moves along the ground and grasp aspects of the terrain and culture previously not considered. smile
But regarding resources in general,to be fair, take China as an example in their dealings on the world stage after leap-frogging ahead of Japan as the second largest net importer of fossil fuels behind the USA. They became very generous regarding debt forgiveness on the African continent. (think billions of dollars)
Yes, we should all acknowledge that the confirmation of a mother lode within any region complicates both diplomacy and war. You failed to mention Karzai and his inner sanctum of sprites. $$$ to be made cutting the deals. From poppy fields to mine shafts…. sad.
In defense of my nation:
With a population of approximately 300 million and a land mass of 3,537,441 square miles it seems we are still vulnerable to attack – the most recent (from all public accounts) by a man who had contact with the Taliban.
I do have a better plan. Bring all our troops home, place our borders and entry visas on lockdown and lock the vault of USAID to all poverty stricken regions. Sit back and drink a coctail and watch the world collapse.
No easy answers. Great article!
Tammy Swofford
June 16th, 2010 at 4:06 pmIt would be Interesting to see how the Taliban view this report. Do they comprehend what it means to have mineral resources.Will it go the Congo way?
June 16th, 2010 at 4:25 pmit is estimated that in a ton of Sea Water exist
June 16th, 2010 at 4:50 pmone milligram of GOLD,but the cost’outweighs’ the return,according to joseph stiglitz and linda bilmes,it has already,COST, the americans a cool $10 trillion in the afghan-iraq venture,to recover one trillion worth of minerals spread over years & years will be a foolhardy venture,
no ????
Afghans and indians (esp. hindus) have always had a good friendship (in spite of all the invasions and plunedrs and killings from Afghanistan into India). And inspite of islam trying to muddle the relationship.
India has always provided good-faith help to Afghans and Pakistan always tried to slander or spoil it.
Minerals are not worth the dung.
Just count how many afghans have died a violent death because of Pakistan’s policies. India’s policies vis-a-vis Afghanistan have never caused such mayhem and the Afghans know it too well.
Earlier Indira Gandhi had warned Leonid Brezhnev about his Afganistan adventure and told him not to undertake it. She flatly refused him any support from India in this matter. It almost caused a break in the relationship between India and SU.
For the Afghans the USA – for all its sins, crimes and faults – is a better friend than Pakistan. India too is a better friend for Afghans than Pakistan. The past proves this clearly.
Islam, an alien arab imperialist ideology, has muddled up things in the indian subcontinent. Afghans, pakistanis and indians will be able to live better if alien arabic islam is recognized as the source of trouble, of deceit, of muddle ups and of misleadment.
June 16th, 2010 at 7:07 pmVishvas,a fool always puts his foot in his mouth,you are no exception,recall 1930 when your twin forked leaders gandhi & nehru in league with zahir shah,had planned to carve out our sind valley amongst them,did they succeed ?? gandhi was shot and zahir ran off to Rome.nehru got a slap from chinese,karazia is a stooge of zahirs,in anycase nehru had bankrolled zahir to vote against our entry in UNO,as to the vicious swings you take on our religion, watch out you may slip in your zeal and break a leg maybe,split open your skull maybe choke on your own words.anyway no one can force you to become a muslim.so enjoy your own and lets be in peace.
June 16th, 2010 at 9:03 pmDear Vishwas,
You represent the mindset of Brahmins. They have eradicated Buddhism from its birh place (India) and erased Jainism. They have enslaved the untouchables and are currently carrying out genocide against the tribals in the rain forests of India. Their views on Islam is explained by you so succinctly, and yet they say muslims are intolerant.
A. Ashfaque
June 17th, 2010 at 2:27 am@ Anwar
Excellent article. Honestly speaking, few people know the natural wealth of Afghanistan.
@ naveed tajammal & A. Ashfaque
I will never respond to any person who willfully comes here to provoke Muslims by bashing Islam. He is not here to bash Taliban or terrorists. He comes here to humiliate Muslims and if anyone does respond to him angrily, he will feel happy because he knows he successfully provoked Muslims.
India is far worst than Pakistan. Along with the brutal killings of Muslims and Sikhs, Christians too are facing annihilation in “secular” India. New York-based Human Rights Watch (HRW) says attacks against Christians have risen sharply since the BJP took power in New Delhi in March 1998 and has escalated even more during campaigning for the elections. Attacks have included killing priests, raping nuns, and vandalizing Christian churches, schools, and cemeteries, according to HRW’s new report “Politics by Other Means: Attacks Against Christians in India”. Thousands of Christians have been forced to convert to Hinduism, the report says.
In 1996, two Christian priests were killed in Bihar, and a third was killed in 1997. Between January 1998 and February 1999, there were reports of a total of 116 attacks on Christians, including the gang-rape of four nuns in Madhya Pradesh in September 1998. In January 1999 an Australian missionary, Graham Staines, and his two sons were killed in Orissa state when they were trapped in a car which was set on fire. The mob responsible for their deaths was led by Bajrang Dal activist and BJP member Dara Singh, according to a government-appointed commission. But the killer Dara Singh, continues to roam around freely, killing Muslims and Christians without fear of being arrested.
The U.S.-based head of Good News India, a Christian organization that runs several orphanages in Orissa — one of India’s poorest regions — claims that Christian leaders are being targeted by Hindu militants and carry a price on their heads. “The going price to kill a pastor is $250,” said Faiz Rahman, the chairman of Good News India.
A spokesman for the All-India Christian Council said: “People are being offered rewards to kill, and to destroy churches and Christian properties. They are being offered foreign liquor, chicken, mutton and weapons. They are given petrol and kerosene.”
June 17th, 2010 at 6:13 amthankyou mustafa, for your thoughts,people like vishwas never look in their own compound,Barjang Dal is provided men and women trained from the Bhansla military school in Nashik district of Maharashtra state,colonel prashad srikant purohit had provided explosives for samjhota express,feb 17 2007,they also did the same in the blasts at,mecca masjid Hyderabad,and twin blasts at jamia masjid in new dehli.Canadian govt does not give visa’s to indian army officers ,who are working or have been working in kashmir and other such areas,two generals and three indian brigadiers had been denied,only last year.and yet the world is silent.
June 17th, 2010 at 9:43 amWell nobody could ever claim the U S of A enters, but rarely, a foreign country, with purely altruistic motives.
For that matter most invading armies, throughout history, have always been backed by the possibility of financial, strategic,territorial, or political advantage.
The old British Imperialists firmly embraced the ideology of. First the Army, then the Church, then the Company. Sometimes not in that order.
But once again the old religious intolerance, especially between Islam and varying sects of Hinduism on the Indian sub continent, rears its, less than beautiful, head, along with Christianity, to a lesser degree, but only because it is, relatively speaking, a minor player. Let us be truthful the attacks on Christians, in this area, doesn’t really have general condemnation locally. Both Hindus and Muslims think Christians are fair game, and would only cease firing in their direction if an atheist appeared for a preferable target, with the Christian, possibly, joining in a three way offensive alliance.
Mustafa…. Once again makes statements without offering any substantive proofs.Liquor, Chicken Mutton Petrol, Kerosene, Weapons. I think they are all readily available throughout India. I’ll admit stirring up the illiterate and deprived to act violently would not be all that hard. You only have to point to a foreign ideology as the source of all their woes, and bingo!!
From whom are the inducements received? More importantly. To which organisation are they being given?
I would tend to think the people who carry out these atrocities are far from being members of a large group, and more than likely would be semi literate fanatics at village level. I have no proof of this but it seems less likely to be conducted, and orchestrated by leaders of an intellectually elite group.
Could we show some tolerance for differing beliefs, or lack of them. This intolerance seems to be at the base, and starting point of most local and international disagreements.
June 17th, 2010 at 10:11 amI thought the subject was Afghanistan’s mineral wealth and the global gamesmanship at sway, yet there seems religious war here on this blog, how sad! Truly people we are running out of time. Bury your hates and prejudices and lets start to work together to save this sinking ship named EARTH,for we will all go down with it!
Anwaar, very excellent commentary on Afghanistan, it has always been it’s potential wealth that has caused it’s seeming unceasing grief. If we think in addition to it’s own potential wealth, that oil lines from the oil fields of ex-soviet states would logically need to run through Afghanistan, it is very clear that it’s wealth and geographical location have doomed it to be a doggedly pursued land of international importance, with a bunch of wolves salivating over it. God help the Afghan People!
June 17th, 2010 at 11:14 amRe: Naveed Tajammul
The weight of the earth is 5.9736×1024 kg. Only the most minuscule of its fractions contains gold dust. Yet who is ever deterred by these odds. They dig and dig and voila!, they produce marketable gold.
Moreover, every other precious metal on planet earth will have a similar ratio in a ton of something else on earth. But it makes it to the world headlines only when it is found in such abundance that it becomes commercially viable. That is why almost the whole world’s newspapers went gaga over the news.
As far as war spending is concerned, to date, Pentagon spending in Iraq has reached $620 billion, compared with $190 billion in Afghanistan. The month old link below is to one of the most patriotic of America’s national dailies.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/afghanistan/2010-05-12-afghan_N.htm
Plus, it is not such a bad idea to recover the money spent. And what does the word ‘spent’ mean any way? The money actually stays right where it belongs i.e. in the hands of big American corporations. They make weapons at home, sell them to own forces who use them abroad and keep the money at home. Such is the beauty of war profits if you also manufacture the weapons. So the ‘trillions spent’ on war are not actually spent. Those stay at home. And now with the prospects of adding another trillion to the cache, I guess the drool must have already started flying every which way in big corporate offices on the Wall Street.
Not a bad deal I would say. Unless you are arguing that there are no such mineral deposits and America is only making it up. If so then that is a whole another line of argument.
Thanks
June 17th, 2010 at 3:49 pmRe: Vishvas
Whatever the topic, whatever the subject, you hem and haw, back and fill, fudge and mudge but in the end you laser beam onto your favorite hate object i.e. Islam.
The readership here would be oh-so-impressed if someday you could first criticize the religion that you were born into and then blast away at your favorite hate object. You could tell us, for example, about how your religion has been brainwashing women for centuries into burning themselves alive on the pyres of their dead husbands or how it convinced more than a third of a billion of humanity into believing themselves to be untouchables and subhuman–so subhuman, in fact, that even their shadow was considered sacrilege were it to fall upon a human of upper caste. Only then would your critique of Islam carry some weight. If I were to write on those factors of your religion, I could put together a volume but coming from me it would have no import.
Please remember while commenting on here next time that this blog is objectively critical of all religions and has no favorites. And even in criticism the aim is reform, not mindless hate.
Thanks
June 17th, 2010 at 4:19 pmHuman nature being what it is I have an observation to make. The capability to influence apart from malice seems to be lacking in some of the posts.
I believe there is an inverse correlation between influence and animosity for certain individuals. The less the influence, the greater the sense of animosity regarding things which the individual cannot actively change. Frustrated social justice causes loss of peripheral vision.
As a woman who has actual little influence in the greater scheme of things my posture has always been to take what is given into my hand and scatter the seeds with care. A handful of seed might bring a better crop then a runaway mouth. smile
Tammy Swofford
June 17th, 2010 at 5:54 pmAnwaar,
A good article as it alludes to the possible US over stay in Afghanistan due to the recently discovered potential bounty
But I think the devil’s cooks will take longer than imagined to prepare the dishes. With present day technology, it is easy to discover the precious minerals, but making use of this wealth is altogether a different proposition.
Perhaps it was 1986 when an American satellite discovered world’s largest copper and gold reserves in Pakistan. To date, even after 24 years, we have not been able to make use of these copper fields (Saindak). Same is the case with Lakhra coal mines and the known but untapped mineral resources in KP. We can attribute this delay to our inefficiency, apathy, and/or clash of interest of local players. But note that the same is likely to happen in Afghanistan.
As a matter of fact, the ‘Taliban infested’ Afghanistan may be a bit more difficult proposition to get to the bounty. Even if the US routs Taliban completely (not possible in near future) and controls the whole area unhindered, it may not be possible for the cooks to prepare the dishes all too soon due to the area’s topography, untrained local human resource, absence of infrastructure, lack of security umbrella and the clash of interests of the regional groups.
Can America delay its departure that long ?
June 17th, 2010 at 7:15 pmThat, admin, was a timely call to Vishvas. Though I do find some merit in what he says, his opinion is “not worth the dung” as long as he continues to believe that a cow’s urine is divinely blessed.
As far as the subject is concerned, the Afghans will keep living the nightmare till the time they either learn to cook their own dishes or respect each other till that happens. Its bloodshed that I see all the way otherwise.
Thank you nonetheless.
Crossbow
June 17th, 2010 at 9:57 pmRe: Vishvas,
A skunk is a specie of the larger mammalian family. Whenever it encounters an adversary, it releases an unbearable stench due to which the adversaries take to their heels. It is a survival technique that the skunk uses to deter its enemies. So far so good. But what can we say of a particular skunk who releases this stench encountering one group but not the other of the same specie? I think such a skunk is highly and incurably prejudiced.
June 17th, 2010 at 10:00 pmI worked as an aircraft lineman about 1980 when this technology was being introduced and got to take a look at the results. It can identify elements but lacks the ability to give you data on how much of what is mixed with what. Without surface samples or drilling samples the information can be misleading and often is useless. Man has gone crazy over gold through the ages. Sea water contains several tons of dissolved gold per cubic mile, it is meaningless data. A concentrated find of neodymium would be the most prized find but rare earth metals are common, hard to refine and most people don’t know what they are used for. The idea of gold or copper gets most people going….
June 18th, 2010 at 1:02 amI repeat:
Islam, an alien arab imperialist ideology, has muddled up things in the indian subcontinent. Afghans, pakistanis and indians will be able to live better if alien arabic islam is recognized as the source of trouble, of deceit, of muddle ups and of misleadment.
I am not a practising hindu (or brahmin) and hence your criticism of hinduism, which is all well known to me, does not bother me. It is your problem with that religion. I have my freedom which you mentally imprisoned muslims do not and cannot have. Brahmins are not ruling over India anymore and the evils in India are no more of their making. Don’t let your pakistan studies ideology overwhelm your real intelligence.
June 18th, 2010 at 12:41 pmRe: Vishvas
You are repeating the mantra without the admission Vishvas.
Your criticism of other religions will continue to ring hollow.
Thanks
June 18th, 2010 at 9:39 pmWell I am, without doubt, one of those who can publicly state, without fear of recrimination within my own country, I am an octogenarian ATHEIST.
Whilst I do not condemn those of you who have been brainwashed since the cradle into adopting the religions prevailing in your families and countries but I do condemn you for failing to see the follies of those beliefs, and also for not being able to see that these beliefs are without factual foundation.
Hindus, Muslims Christian, Jews. There is one outstanding trait. Willingness to condemn the negatives in other religions whilst they fail to recognise similar failings within their own.
I have said it before. Each and every separate religion has within its own area sects at variance with the central belief, each and everyone claiming to be the “Truth” with all the others being wrong. I propose you are all wrong. But criticism of each other, and failing to see that this attitude is divisive, only proves that those with eyes don’t always see.
My old Head Master, and this at a religious school, said. “I am not here to teach you anything except how to learn.” He was successful, I am still learning, but then my eyes were not only opened but seeing.
Stop trying to drag every other person to the level of your own self perceived status of religious perfection.
It is time that the underlying religious motivation in most conflicts ceased. These conflicts, from the childish barbs aimed at each other here, to the violence of international disputation over the millenia
June 19th, 2010 at 5:26 amgain nothing, and hurt all.
see vishvas you are yourself by your actions proving your worth,i do understand that you are a heathen,never the less one must enlighten your lot time and again,the muslims give full respect to the Five on whom were revealed the five books,namely prophets,abrahim (su’huf),musa(tu’rat),daud (zu’bur),isa(injil) & mohammad (qu’ran).yes Arabic is an alien language but all religious transcription in origin are in the language in which the books have been revealed.when,quran came the pahalvi was language of men of letters and remained so, for good 100 years,till hajaj bin yusuf put the grammarians to work.slowly all books were translated and pahalvi died its own death.vishwas do you have any idea of what is the background of your ”sanskrit”an artifical language???as well the base of your deva nagri script ?? or for that matter gurmukhi script ??
June 19th, 2010 at 8:46 am@ naveed tajammal
Dear Naveed, I told you this earlier:
“I will never respond to any person who willfully comes here to provoke Muslims by bashing Islam. He is not here to bash Taliban or terrorists. He comes here to humiliate Muslims and if anyone does respond to him angrily, he will feel happy because he knows he successfully provoked Muslims.”
But you did not take my advice and you continue to have a dialogue with the devil. He is happy even if you curse his mother. He knows his dirty work is paying off because he came here to provoke Muslims and yes indeed Muslims are being provoked by his postings.
Naveed, when will you learn to get rid of the devils? There is only one way. “Just ignore the devils and their heart will roast like BBQ because no one is being provoked. They will learn, it is a waste of time to come here to bash Islam and Muslims”.
June 19th, 2010 at 6:11 pmIt seems that my final paragraph of June 19 5.26 was totally ignored, and there they go again sniping and griping. Mine is better than yours Nyah nyah nyah. Isn’t it time you left kindy behind?
June 20th, 2010 at 5:01 amTom Edgar;
June 20th, 2010 at 11:27 pmThe rationale of this cross-fire,between the inhabitants of sind and hind is around 1300 years old,prior to this three religions existed BUDDHIST, ZORASTARIANS & JAINS.this brahmanism as follwed by Vishvas lot was a product of renegade buddhist monks and Dasturs of Mazdak FAITH,who had fled to Surat area due to the wrath of Nausherwan or khusru pervaiz l,who had burried alive upside down Mazdak,as well as most of his dasturs or high priests,the birth place of this new order was the present Gujarat region,the first Temple was that at Sommanth,which was destroyed by Sultan mahmmud of Ghuzz’nih (ghazni) in early 11th century AD, from whose effect this lot still reels,the sultan broke the phallic stone pillar,which was worshipped here in four parts,and hauled them away, two are still burried in ghazni,two were sent to arabia,one to medina the other to mecca to be burried under the gate enterances,the Sandal Wood gates of the Temple too had been taken to Ghazni,The brahmans have worked hard and succeeded in presenting our sind valley history in REVERSE,the reason being our muslims refused to acknowledge our buddhist past.these brahmans now antiquate their religion to times beyond 2000 BC,however the purana’s or the Rig veda scriptures are all post 7th century AD,as is the mahabharata epic,as well the ramayana.these clever brahmans have now imposed a web of story,whose products are people like VISHVAS,by the very term HIND was coined by Arab geographers in the 8th century AD as prior to this there is no geographic entity as HIND.the arabs segregated the followers of other religions to the east as hind.in our geographic entity we have the whole of afghanistan till cha bahar naval port to the east till confines of jamana as in old days it fell in Rann of Kutch ,not, as it now flows in the bay of bengal,
the axis of old rivers were different in the past,the birth of the warrior class of this new hindu faith is Mount ABU in rajastan which was old jain temple area this concept of Rajput was coined here the Agni kula or the fire born in 650 or so AD.sanskrit uses old parsi which was before pahalvi,in the hakamanish period.pahalvi came in vogue in the Ashkhani and Sassani periods.when you study the old scripts the jig saw puzzle falls in place.the sind valley has a distinct language old sycthian, because in our north we extended till the walls of china.it was our monks who laid the foundations of Lhasa,AFTER the fall of KHOTAN.
Re:Naveed Tajammal
Thank you for this brief tour of history. I find it fascinating indeed.
June 21st, 2010 at 10:21 amThe Hindus are not following the true Hindu religion. Rama worshiped God and commanded his followers to worship God. If he was himself God, why would he worship God? God does not worship anyone.
CONCEPT OF TAUHEED (WORSHIP OF ONE GOD “ALONE”) IN HINDU SCRIPTURES
Qur’an: “Say: He is Allah, The ONE and ONLY. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him.” [Al-Qur'an 112:1-4]
Hindu Scriptures: “I am the goal of life, the LORD and support of all, the inner witness, the abode of all. I am the only refuge, the ONE true friend; I am the beginning, the staying, and the end of creation; I am the womb and the eternal seed. I am heat; I give and withhold the rain. I am immortality and I am death; I am what is and what is not”[Bhagavad Gita 9:18-19]
Hindu Scriptures: ” O friends, do not worship ANYBODY but Him, the Divine One. Praise Him ALONE.”[Rigveda 8:1:1]
Islam is closest to Hinduism on the most important issue “One and only God”……. • Hindu Scriptures: ” O friends, do not worship ANYBODY but Him, the Divine One. Praise Him ALONE.”[Rigveda 8:1:1] * Qur’an: “Say: He is Allah, The ONE and ONLY. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him.” [Al-Qur'an 112:1-4]
Islam and Hinduism came from same God. to meet the conditions of the time..• Hindu Scriptures says: ” O friends, do not worship ANYBODY but Him, the Divine One. Praise Him ALONE.”[Rigveda 8:1:1] * Muslim Scripture says : “Say: He is Allah, The ONE and ONLY. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him.” [Al-Qur'an 112:1-4].
Hindu Scriptures: “He is ONE ONLY without a second.” [Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1]
Hindu Scriptures: “There is only ONE God, not the second; not at all, not at all, not in the least bit.”[Brahma Sutra]
CONCEPT OF UNSEEN GOD IN HINDU SCRIPTURES
Qur’an: “No vision can grasp Him But His grasps is over all vision: He is Above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things.” [Al-Qur'an 6:103]
Qur’an: “There is nothing whatever like unto Him.”[Al-Qur'an 42:11]
Hindu Scriptures: “There is no likeness of Him.” [Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:19]
Hindu Scriptures: “His form is not to be seen; no one sees Him with the eye.” [Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:20]
Hindu Scriptures: “That which cannot be seen by the eyes, but by which the eyes see, [Kena Upanishad]
Hindu Scriptures: “The Formless Supreme Spirit that pervades the universe can have no material representation, likeness or image.” — (Yajur Veda 32:3.)
Hindu Scriptures: “He is bodiless and pure.” [Yajurveda 40:8]
CONCEPT OF SHIRK IN HINDU SCRIPTURES
Qur’an: “Allah forgives not (The sin of) joining other gods With Him; but He forgives whom He pleases other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah, Has strayed far, far away (From the Right).” [4:116]
Qur’an: “We sent a Messenger to every nation, sayings worship Allah and avoid the idols. Amongst them were some whom Allah guided, and some justly disposed to error,. Travel in the land and see what was the end of those belied (the revelation and the Prophets) “[16:36]
Hindu Scriptures: “Of Him there are neither parents nor lord.” [Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9]
Hindu Scriptures: “They are enveloped in darkness, in other words, are steeped in ignorance and sunk in the greatest depths of misery who worship the uncreated, eternal prakrti — the material cause of the world — in place of the All-pervading God, but those who worship visible things born of the prakrti, such as the earth, trees, bodies (human and the like) in place of God are enveloped in still greater darkness, in other words, they are extremely foolish, fall into an awful hell of pain and sorrow, and suffer terribly for a long time” (Yajur Veda 40:9.)
Hindu Scriptures: “Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures.” [Bhagavad Gita 7:20]
THE CONCEPT OF DIVINE CREATOR (GOD) IN HINDU SCRIPTURES
Qur’an: “Your Lord is the Creator, the knower”(15:86)
Qur’an: “HE is the Creator of the heaven and earth.” (6:10)
Hindu Scriptures: “God creates but nobody create God.” (Rig Veda Mandal 10 sukta 129)
Hindu Scriptures: “Verily, great is the glory of the Divine Creator.” (Rig Veda 5:1:81)
Hindu Scriptures: “God is verily great” (Atharva Veda 20:58:3)
THE DISBELIEVERS IN HINDU SCRIPTURES
Qur’an: “Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).”[Al-Qur'an 2:18]
Hindu Scriptures: ” There maybe someone who sees the words and yet indeed does not see them; may be another one who hears these words but indeed does not hear them.” [Rigveda 10:71:4]
The above quotes extracted from an article written by Muhammad Sarosh Butt, Pakistan
June 22nd, 2010 at 6:38 am28-Sep-2003, sarosh.butt@nimir.com.pk
My purpose in posting this article is to reduce tension and animosity between Muslims and Hindus.
Mustafa
“My purpose in posting this article is to reduce tension and animosity between between Muslims and Hindus.”???
I thought it was to prove Islam was superior.
Still the underhand sniping and griping. My Lord is greater than thine. Mine is the Creator, and not a snippet of evidence.
And I thought the Baptists barmy.
June 22nd, 2010 at 10:23 amnaved tajammal as the supreme historian of the Indian subcontinent.
His history is written in order to “prove” that Pakistan ideology is the best thing to happen to mankind. So much self-deceit and concoction for the convenience of the Muslim imperialists and their quislings.
June 23rd, 2010 at 12:00 pmvishvas,whenever the rebirth of any civilzation
June 24th, 2010 at 2:33 pmtakes place,somebody has to undertake the task
of telling the actual facts,here no mahabharata or ramayana is being written,as was done by your party,chronology is laid bare,distortions of sir william jones and pandit radakannta exposed,how your lot hijacked our script and refined it as seen,imposed your language on us,in disguise of URDU,and killed the bengali, as till 1880 it was written in perso-arabic script,created a person called tagore the master of lies,who and your other lot then burn’t all bengali written works(perso-arabic)
and produced those as are now in the market.
fortunately all steps taken are documented with reasons,credit goes to the certain class of british who atleast were honest to leave the evidence.FACTS WILL ALWAYS BE FACTS.weither it is a naveed tajammal exposing them or somebody else as i have set the chain reaction.my book whenever published has all the details/references
which none can negate.
Tom Edgar, Sir:
Lest thinking thine own self “superior” and more enlightened as an atheist, it must be noted that both atheism and secularism can also be typecast as religions. While you smugly stereotype the barmy Baptists, there indeed exists a psychological profile for both atheist and secularist. Think not, thou art thine own man, rather you are bound by your own beliefs.
“Thou are but sand without lime.” (quote attributed to Emperor Gauis when speaking of Seneca and his philosophy.)
Smiling,
Tammy Swofford
June 25th, 2010 at 6:20 amI agree with Tammy Swofford. A religion is a way of life. Ipso facto, atheism, secularism, and agnosticism are equally good or bad religions, albeit consisting of loosely knit groups.
‘Mine is better than yours’ is a psychological game that we all play through out our lives; religions, cultures, social classes, past and present ages, and intellectual capacities notwithstanding.
By the way, we also play another psychological game. It is: ‘Now I got you, you SOB’. That happens when we lure some one into our area of strength and then let him have it.
June 25th, 2010 at 12:36 pmOnly total bigots without knowledge of atheism would be so ridiculous as to equate religion with atheism.
By its own name a= without, theism = beliefs in Gods. How any one without religious beliefs can be accused of having a religion is beyond me.
P Alam’s. First sentence said it all. Atheism is NOT a way of life loosely knit or not. Atheists are Capitalists, Communists, Liberal, Democratic. Rich and Poor. We have neither dogma nor ritualism. There are no leaders; viz Priests, Mullahs. There are no temples or central organisations herding the faithless.
Atheists have only ONE identifier. Lack of belief in the existence of Gods. End of story.
Primarily this is premised on the absence of any replicable evidence to the contrary. Produce the evidence and atheism ceases to exist.
Barmy Baptists is one of my own throw away lines. It is what I said to my wife when, as an ex Nun candidate, lapsed Catholic. She felt the need to go to a Church. I suggested our neighbours were nice people even though Barmy Baptists. She attended, and even taught Sunday School until further enlightenment, and spent the rest of her years as A Quaker. Baptist intolerance towards Roman Catholics was her main reason for a second apostasy, after all most of her friends were R C’s. and she couldn’t think of them as the evil ones. When she died, still a strong Quaker, she eschewed most of Christian beliefs. e.g virgin births J. C. as a God, immaculate conception, miracles. It is one of the Quakers strengths that they do not require any formal beliefs, nor have Priests. One exception is that Peace and non violence are sacrosanct.
So Peace to you, and as Dave Allen would say. “May your Gods go with you.”.
Oh! That line was one of the reasons he was ex communicated.
June 27th, 2010 at 11:13 amTom Edgar,
That’s exactly why I used the term ‘Jurassic Era’ in one of my earlier comments.
If we take out the rind of spiritualism, all that we are left with is a way of leading our socio-psychological lives in a given manner.It was in this sense that I equated atheism with religion.
Bigotry is not confined to religious fanatics only. I have seen many an atheist who vociferously defends his ‘faith’ as other fanatics do. It is no valid argument to say that atheists are capitalists, liberals or democratic etc. The same is true for all those religious people who still have their spiritual rind/ shell intact. They too are are capitalists, democrats, and/or liberals.
The atheists may not have any rituals but they are dogmatic nonetheless.
You have been vehemently asking for the proof for existence of God. All right, you give me a proof that he does not exist. In doing so you can take help from all the luminaries like the Darwins, Newtons, Ein Steins, Salams, Stephen Hawkings and others you choose. Mind you I am not talking of a religious God whose existence rests on Belief. I am talking about an Axiom. Is there an Axiom or not?
This Universe that we inhabit is so complex that we cannot understand it; in fact we are not capable of understanding it. May be when we are evolved enough after about a millennium or so we may be able to unravel the mystery. But till that time lets not be that vehement and dogmatic. In this respect, an agnostic is better placed.
The old sophist, Protagoras (400 BC), very wisely said: ‘With regard to gods I cannot say whether they are that they are, or that they are not that they are not’.
No offense meant, sir. Only trying to put scattered ideas into their proper perspective.
Regards.
June 27th, 2010 at 2:54 pm@ Anwaar
You wrote excellent article informing people about Afghanistan as you said “land of much wealth, culture, scholarly attainment and prized international trade”. Thank you very much for the information.
However I strongly feel your subject has absolutely no connection with “belief or denial of God”. Unfortunately some people are using your blog to create debate on “existence and non-existence of God”. I am sure the overwhelming majority of the visitors who visit your blog belong to the religions of Islam, Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism and I am quite sure they believe in existence of God and have no desire to enter in debate in “existence and non-existence of God”. For this reason, I honestly feel, in the interest of the vast majority of the viewer of you blogs, any topic solely to impose debate on “existence and non-existence of God” is irrelevant and out of place and should be deleted by moderators before publication. This is just one man’s opinion. You are entitled to final decision.
June 27th, 2010 at 10:39 pmP Alam.
As with Christian Fundamentalists, instead of answering with your evidence you counter with a question. You KNOW that it is impossible to prove the existence of nothing as an entity as it doesn’t exist, just as it is impossible to prove the actual existence of an entity without evidence.
I do not have to refer to your list of luminaries other than to draw your attention to Darwin and Newton both being religious, with Darwin even a Church official.Einstein, although not conventionally religious, never claimed to be an atheist.
Will we ever understand the universe? 1. It is doubtful. 2. If we ever do WE certainly won’t be around. But If left, as in the past, to religionists, we wouldn’t know what we understand today.
In rebuttal to Mustafa and all the Fundamentalists of varying religions who think that condemnation of atheism is quite correct but religion is sacrosanct.
The whole of the article by our esteemed colleague, and his many other treatises, are soundly, and strongly, based in religious motivations, and the conflicts emanating from these religious followings. Practically all the conflicts in this world, but especially in the “East” have a religiously motivated content.
Even when the conflict is motivated by political, territorial, economic or other philosophical reasons, Religion and the divisiveness between one to another is usually exploited to justify the acts.
Remove two things and most of the problems would cease. Religion and Avarice.
June 28th, 2010 at 6:16 amMustafa
Which morals forbid that we cannot discuss God? One has to go through major and minor premises even if one is using deductive reasoning to reach the truth.
The Westerners would have discovered America at least a few thousand years earlier had they not drawn an imaginary line in the Atlantic Ocean, and decided ‘no plus ultra’( not beyond this). For they feared that there were demons out there. After Columbus crossed the line, they found out that the only demon ahead was America. Discussions harm no one; the legendary ostrich’s buried head, does.
June 28th, 2010 at 4:09 pmTom Edgar,
I think the ‘Law of Causation’ says that every effect has to have a cause. That takes us to the ultimate question: what caused the universe to come into being?
Tom may say that it was sheer chance, Dick may ascribe it to the handiwork of a Superior Being, and Harry may argue that all laws, including the law of causation, broke down at the time of creation.
Tom(smile), Dick, and Harry have no reason to be vehement or dogmatic; for they do not know enough.
June 28th, 2010 at 4:29 pmIt is amazing. One can point out that when asking a question. viz Give evidence of a God. They refuse to answer but respond with a question.
After pointing this out and once again asking for the evidence from the FIRST question they still respond with irrelevancies to avoid the initial request for EVIDENCE.
Which morals Mustafa? Oh read your Koran. I referred to mine, and there are so many to which I object. Let us start with apostasy. All over the Muslim world there are instances of retribution, familial, and official, for anyone who dares to change faith, even intra Islam. Penalties range from ostracism to death.
Criticism of Religious personages, likewise. I’ll only cite Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali and they are just the prominent ones who have been OFFICIALLY and persistently pursued for revenge. Many minor ones paid the extreme penalty because they lacked the security afforded by affluence.
Tom, Dick and Harry have no reason to be vehement or dogmatic for they do not know enough? Arguably true, but then one must presuppose that because you have religion then you do know enough.
Who ever claimed there was a “What” to “Cause” the beginning, if there was one (in our understanding of the term). The most largely accepted theory is the “Big Bang” and there are thousands of pieces of supportive scientifically provable evidence, although not being near a final answer, so far, there has been none negating. Every day, in the cosmology, there are big bangs, it is actually chaotic out there.
One day there will, in all probability, be a big bang right here, seeing that the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies are drifting perceptibly closer. Of course that will be in the hands of the supreme navigator not random, erratic, interplanetary travel.
If there was an EXTERNAL cause, with an extra terrestrial being the causation. From whence came this being and when did it start?, furthermore what caused IT. OH! sayeth most of the theists I’ve spoken with. “God was in, and was the beginning.” Now how does that differentiate from there being a spontaneous beginning through the explosion of various elements when colliding just as they do all over the universe daily?
Now I willingly admit I do NOT KNOW how this all began. But I’m not going to take the word of a couple of wandering Middle Eastern mystics having hallucinations five thousand years ago, when the earth itself is millions of years old, and mankind in all his forms having been around for hundreds of thousands of years before Adam and Eve. I will, with reservations, accept the findings of thousands of eminent open minded Scientists with their supportive evidence. I won’t accept the word of biased “Theists” without supportive evidence.
So far the modern Sciences have given credible propositions regarding the probable beginnings, and backed this with equally believable evidence, If evidence to the contrary is ever shown, then I along with the whole of the skeptical world, will evaluate the EVIDENCE and make a judgment. That is the scientific way. Pro AND Con. Unlike the Theistic way which is, according to the differing faiths, MY WAY or no way.Even they don’t agree with one another.
PS: I notice you didn’t even acknowledge that you were wrong in accusing Darwin, Newton, and Einstein of being atheists.
June 29th, 2010 at 9:07 amDear anwaar,
below is the site on which my review on Aitzaz ahsans ;’INDUS SAGA’ is listed,this will give you a brief insight,on our past or how it has been distorted,
http://pakhistorian.com/2010/06/28/book-review-critical-analysis-of-aitzaz-ahsans-indus-saga/
June 29th, 2010 at 2:37 pmregards.
Tom Edgar,
Please read my comments again. I never ‘accused’ Darwin, Newton and Einstein of being atheists. It is your perception only. In fact I invited you to take their help (through their writings) to prove your point of view.
You seem to be so charged up that you did not realize I was not discussing this issue sitting on a theistic pedestal. I answered you through what ever little objective knowledge I possess. It is purely academic discussion wherein an emotional outburst has no place.
You have asked the question again. In fact I have given you three answers (Tom, Dick and Harry). There may be umpteen more answers (all equally plausible). That is why I urged that we do not have to be dogmatic. How can we? We spend our lives like sleep walkers, knowing only about our immediate surroundings while a larger vista remains in the dark for ever.
Big Bang does not occur every day. It occurred only once. Yes, modern sciences have given a credible evidence of the Big Bang. But science can only guess what happened earlier than that. There are no definite answers.
Now lets talk about your favorite topic: religion and /or the existence of God in purely theistic context.
Agreed that the religion has caused lot of bloodshed in the world. But lets look deep down; we will find economy and lust for power peeping from behind. Additionally, religion has served humanity well; it would not have been around had it not served that well. A normal man is not an intellectual like you; he needs a path to move on in his life. He had to invent God even if He did not exist. Indeed, it is in our veins; atheism in yours, theism in his.
So sir, be of good cheer.
Regards.
June 29th, 2010 at 3:31 pmIt is a waste of time to debate with Atheists just as it is a waste of time to debate with mentally retarded persons. I am posting the following quotes to support the existence of God as there are trillions of proofs to support that the universe and everything within it, has a designer with purpose.
The universe did not come into existence by accident or random chance. There is transparent proof of design and purpose in the mechanics and processes within the universe and even in human body itself. Read fine tuning parameters for the universe at the following site:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/designun.html#werSqn55R1np
BIG BANG – The Expansion Of The Universe
The Universe has been expanding since its creation. Hubbell, an astronomer made this great discovery, in the early part of this century. It was also predicted by Einstein’s theory of “General Relativity.” The expansion of the universe is clearly mentioned in the following Quranic verses: Chapter: 51, Verse: 47 The heavens, We have built with power and, We are expanding it…..VISIT http://www.angelfire.com/il2/islamicpage/science
Professor Keith Moore, one of the world’s prominent scientists of anatomy and embryology. University of Toronto, Canada It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur’aan about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or ‘Allah’, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of Allah.
“It seems to me that Muhammad was a very ordinary man, he couldn’t read, didn’t know how to write, in fact he was an illiterate…
We’re talking about 1400 years ago, you have some illiterate person making profound statements that are amazingly accurate, of a scientific nature…
I personally can’t see how this could be mere chance, there are too many accuracies and like Dr. Moore, I have no difficulty in my mind reconciling that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which lead him to these statements.” T.V.N. Persaud Professor of Anatomy, and Professor of Paediatrics and Child Health, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.
“…In a relatively few ayahs (Qur’ânic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development such as classification, terminology, and description existed previously. In most, if not all instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature.” Gerald C. Goeringer Professor and Co-ordinator of Medical Embryology in the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington DC, USA.
“…our knowledge of these disciplines is such, that it is impossible to explain how a text produced at the time of the Qur’ân could have contained ideas that have only been discovered in modern times.”… “The above observation makes the hypothesis advanced by those who see Muhammad as the author of the Qur’ân untenable. How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author, in terms of literary merits, in the whole of Arabic literature?.. Dr. Maurice Bucaille.. former chief of the Surgical Clinic, University of Paris Professor William W. Hay is one of the best known marine scientists in the United States. satellite photography and emote-sensing techniques. Professor Hay replied: I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scripture of the Holy Qur’aan, and I have no way of knowing where they would come from, but I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and that this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages. Professor Hay: Well, I would think it must be the divine being! .
Professor Yushudi Kusan: Director of the Tokyo Observatory, I can say, I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in the Qur’aan.
“As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can specifically see. I can understand embryology and developmental biology. I can understand the words that are translated to me from the Qur’ân. As I gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I do today and describing things, I could not describe the things that were described”– E. Marshall Johnson Professor and Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and Developmental Biology, and Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute, Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA.
Joe Leigh Simpson, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology at the North Western University in Chicago in the United States of America. Professor Simpson said:
It follows, I think, that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion, but in fact religion can guide science by adding revelation to some traditional scientific approaches. That there exists statements in the Qur’aan shown by science to be valid, which supports knowledge in the Qur’aan having been derived from Allah. ……..
Professor Palmer a scientist from the U.S.
June 29th, 2010 at 8:50 pmWe need research into the history of early Middle Eastern oral traditions to know whether in fact such historical events have been reported. If there is no such record, it strengthens the belief that Allah transmitted through Muhammad bits of his knowledge that we have only discovered for ourselves in recent times. We look forward to a continuing dialogue on the topic of science in the Qur’aan in the context of geology. Thank you very much.
At last we get a sensible answer to a simple question. Like extracting a wisdom tooth. Persistence but it still leaves a cavity.
Too much to answer instantly but it all needs research.
June 30th, 2010 at 3:25 amTime I will need, down with a rotten cold. But I will add as a post script. I noticed there was no
June 30th, 2010 at 12:10 pmreference to my reply regarding Rushdie/Ayyan Hirsi Ali. and retribution for apostasy/blasphemy.
Tom Edgar,
Who sided with what happened to Rushdie et al?
This is what happens when we try to make a mixed pickle of different topics.
An academic discussion is always between two or more adults; it shuns patronizing approach regardless of chronological age.
June 30th, 2010 at 2:08 pmTom Edgar,
Socrates often use to say ‘define your terms’. Lets see if it helps.
Seemingly, the route cause of confusion is that so many topics of different hues and colors have been meshed up so inextricably that no one knows who is talking what and in which context. To me, the concepts of a classical and philosophical God, religious God, and present day astrophysics’ concept of God are entirely different. Mixing the three concepts will obviously cause problems in communication.
As if this was not enough, the generalized concepts and particular incidences are being mixed incessantly.How did we bring in Rushdie while discussing about the existence of God?
Another condition of good communication is that before commenting, we must read clearly what the other person is saying. Where learning stops, senility begins.
Lets define our terms.
June 30th, 2010 at 3:37 pmThat was in response to #40 Which (who) morals forbid etc.,
July 1st, 2010 at 9:03 amRead again. NO.40 contained my comments addressed to Mustafa. These were not written by Mustafa.
July 1st, 2010 at 11:39 amAh, Tammy, my fellow country-woman: semantics, semantics.
I long for John Brand, whose thoughtful writing–often dealing with religion–used to appear in the now defunct YellowTimes, after 9-11. I’ve seen nothing of his in years. He was a World War II veteran, well into his eighties then, and I suppose has gone to his great reward…
…but John Brand, like me, like Tom Edgar, had no expectation of a great reward.
If “religion” can be defined, as it is on the site, dictionary.com, as “a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances,” then a-theism does not–absolutely does not–qualify.
July 1st, 2010 at 5:09 pmI read those references and whilst being a Professor of anatomy and gynecology or obstetrics is no reason to exclude them from discussing the issues it doesn’t give them qualifications above anybody else.
I have no means, nor desire, to check the figures given, and will take them as being factual. What I don’t see is how it proves there was a God. It may well be that the universe would not exist if there were deviations, I can’t disprove that, no more than the proselytizing fundamentalist can prove it.
Taking the figures as being accurate only shows that because of them then we and the universe exists. It does NOT prove the existence of a mighty being putting the parameters in place.
One little sentence on that site said. The universe and LIFE being possible only because of it. Well from what little we know of the billions x billions of the planets in the universe most seem to be lifeless.
As for the quotations from the Koran which, as in Biblical interpretations, needs a little tweaking and stretching with a preconceived bias to make them fit whatever you wish them to mean. I also remember the Koran didn’t come into existence for a long time after the death of Mohamed.
Jules Verne must have been another prophet with the futuristic writings he left. With some of his designs being specifically and prophetically correct. Another of course was Leonardo da Vinci. They of course didn’t write in vague terms to obfuscate and allow interpretations to suit.
None of these have any relevance to specifically identifying a God. 1. Where is the God. 2. From whence came this particular God.3 How did god come into being. 4 Where is Heaven. Most importantly where is the evidence.
July 2nd, 2010 at 9:31 am